Report 215
Report #215 Skillset: Night Skill: Gloomtide Org: Tahtetso Status: Completed Jun 2009 Furies' Decision: Change cost to 3 shadows. Will consider a command to enemy multiple people at a time. Problem: Gloomtide is a skill that allows a coven of 5 or more to stealthily clear enemy lists with a 3-4 second equilibrium loss. There is no power cost associated with this ability, allowing the coven leader to spam this ability at the expense of mobility. It can be spammed to nullify many player abilities, notably demesnes which fire on 10s intervals. Players affected by Gloomtide, must also enter in several lines (possibly 20+) to re-enemy players. Even if you gag and use an alias, it is essentially a second delay or more to re-enemy depending on latency. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Add a minor power cost (2p) to cast to encourage the skill to be used more strategically instead of being spammed 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Add a cost of 5 shadows to cast to also encourage the skill to not be spammed and used more strategically 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Allow players to enemy multiple players with one command as opposed to separate instances. Player Comments: ---on 6/16 @ 01:55 writes: What's with solution one? I thought we had already agreed that the issue was the spam. Or do you really want to do that entire discussion again in comments? ---on 6/16 @ 02:09 writes: An unnescessary change considering the ability is countered by a simple alias, as Malicia as proven upon the forums. I highly disagree with solution #1, and most of the solutions to be perfectly truthful. If re-enemying people can cost eq, I'd have zero issue with Solution #3. However, it is already easily countered by 'enemy person' which requires zero balance, and uses zero balance. This is unnescessary. ---on 6/16 @ 02:15 writes: I thought this had been discussed, Gloomtide is simply countered by an enemy alias that enemies everyone again, I am in support of Solution 3 as spam could be lessened with it, but having any power cost or shadow cost to be countered by the push of a button or a short alias is too much. I am in favor of reducing spam, but not making it cost power ---on 6/16 @ 02:19 writes: Gloomtide has an extremely simple counter. The only issue is that this counter causes a lot of spam to the user, which (depending on the client) can be a fair bit of lag. We had a relatively long discussion about it on envoys the other day, where the end result was that "fixing the spam / lag issue" was all that was required. Putting a power limiter in an already power-heavy skillset for something that is EASILY countered without any delay or requirement (this is one of the easiest scripts to write, really!) is awful. Same with putting a 2.5-5p cost on it in terms of shadows (since they are required for a lot of other things as well). It is a skill that is easy to use and has a very easy counter. The only issue here is the spam, which we had already agreed upon was the issue and which Jozan already accepted as the answer to his problem in our discussion. ---on 6/16 @ 05:51 writes: As above, I'm in support of the third solution to eliminate the ungodly amounts of spam resulting from the alias necessitated by this skill. Having 50 lines of spam to enable the offense which I need as a bard against a group of Night-users is painful, and I'd much rather go for a single means of fixing this problem by being able to either do MASSENEMY , etc or something. ---on 6/16 @ 13:16 writes: I'm not sure what client you guys are using, but gagging that many lines is still going to produce lag, probably worse than just letting the spam hit the screen. Solution number 3 sounds great. ---on 6/16 @ 14:23 writes: Gloomtide should absolutely be looked at, I think addressing the cure would be better than nerfing the skill, but it's unreasonable to assert that having to an to run such a large and spammy alias before i make any attack that targets enemies is insignificant. ---on 6/16 @ 16:51 writes: Right. I think it's pretty much concurrence that the ability doesn't need to be nerfed, but rather the mass spam that gets involved with it. I'm in support of Viynain's MASSENEMY function, as well as a MASSALLY function. Both of which should be made forcible. ---on 6/16 @ 16:54 writes: I don't agree with making it have a power cost, but solution 2 or 3 seems reasonable to me. Maybe not 5 shadows (more about 2), since it -would- add a small limiter to it, but 2 shadows isn't a lot, especially with the Nightalter up. Solution 3 would be good to implement either way, since Gloomtide isn't the only way to get rid of enemies en masse. ---on 6/16 @ 16:57 writes: Oh, I forgot - it doesn't take shadows currently either, does it? The application of solution two alongside of three would make sense to me, considering shadows kinda are integral to the whole Night skillset. 5 or 2 as Sarrasri said, either is fine. ---on 6/16 @ 23:36 writes: Solution 2 is asking a bit much, considering the fact that Night is already a power heavy skill set. I'm supportive of 3, but giving Gloomtide a shadow cost is the same as giving it a power cost ---on 6/17 @ 07:22 writes: Regardless of how easy the counter to gloomtide is, it is a powerful skill that pretty much has no cost beyond one person's equilibrium. Shadows are something you gather beforehand, not in a fight, so their use is better than actual power in terms of convenience. You could argue that all it takes is an alias to counter, but why should you be able to use Gloomtide without worry of losing anything beyond some eq, when you're essentially screwing the offense of specific classes repeatedly. ---on 6/17 @ 15:30 writes: You are aware that Covens are also fragile? Targetting the Coven leader if you're in a group also helps deal with this exponentially, and Magnagora has no issue with doing this. You also underestimate how long Gloomtide's eq recovery is. It's long enough to honestly instakill someone in the midst of group fighting. ---on 6/17 @ 17:11 writes: I'm ok with considering the fragility of covens as long as the coven leader is required to identify themselves before combat begins, barring that, I support solution 3 with adding a minor shadow cost to gloomtide ---on 6/18 @ 00:28 writes: There really is no need for a shadow limiter if the issue with spam is removed. Gloomtide is fine as a skill, the *only* issue with the repeated-use-aspect is that those working against it have to "spam" themselves. Remove the self-spam, and it's extremely simple to counter-- and costs even less than the EQ and coven requirement. There is no EQ cost to enemy someone. ---on 6/19 @ 04:46 writes: "it is essentially a second delay or more to re-enemy depending on latency"...well, yes, but it takes 4 eq to use and the coven then can't move into your demesne or whatever such that it could possibly be relevant. We had this skill when it cost power, and it STUNK. 3 is the least counterproductive of these suggestions. ---on 6/20 @ 18:37 writes: I like solution 3. I don't think the others are necessary. ---on 6/22 @ 23:49 writes: Looks like everyone likes solution threeeeeeee. Me too. ---on 6/23 @ 16:52 writes: Also, gloomtide should have the same restrictions as a Terror Coven or at least change it to only area or contenent wide, that it works accross planes and on people who are offline is overkill ---on 6/23 @ 20:51 writes: It already is only continent-wide... ---on 6/27 @ 04:45 writes: I like solution 3 ---on 6/29 @ 19:59 writes: Actually, pretty sure it is cross-continent. Test it. ---on 6/29 @ 22:42 writes: Hm. Previous testing by Sojiro had been continent-only, but it's definitely not so restricted now. I don't think it's really a huge issue either way (the "re- enemy your enemies list" thing works the same...). The real issue is still #3, the solution to spam.